oDesk: Developers for Developers
February 20th, 2007
Finally a place for good quality outsourcing and coders.
In 5 days I received about 25 applications. Of these 25 applicants, 20 of them had a better combination of skill set and experience than any resume that I have had float across my desk in the last year....My providers are highly skilled, great communicators, detail oriented, affordable, and they WANT TO WORK! When is the last time you went to the university down the street and picked up a developer with those credentials?
I've checked the resumés myself and Adam's right.
oDesk home page
Actually oDesk is more than a place for outsourcing, but a whole system for hiring and managing coders. It's rather techcentric. It's not the sort of thing that a client would enjoy managing (one does need to know how to spec a project in technical terms and how to speak to a developer). It's something for someone like me with one foot in the commercial realm and the other on the technical side. But to be honest I would probably have John do most of the developer management (depending on the project).
The decision about whether I would manage the project directly or not, would probably depend on whether John was already involved in that area of the business. Most of the SEO work is my direct province. To put someone between myself and the end developer would likely not improve matters. Most of the WordPress refinements and CMS (apart from the WYSIWYG editor and even that I've tried to hand off - but developers just don't understand WYSIWYG editors) are John's sphere. I am about to interview amother full-time developer locally with superb qualifications (finally!) this week. But if it doesn't work out or we need still more hands on deck, oDesk here we come! I will probably hire Russian and Ukrainian developers as I speak the language fluently. I don't really want to move to Tomsk (Vienna is quite nice, thank you!) to have to work with them. Without oDesk, you'd feel pretty cutoff. But with oDesk, I can live in Vienna and work in Tomsk a few days a week. Fantastic.
Some things I really like about oDesk apart from the system itself.
- reasonable fees: oDesk takes a flat 10% fee. Small enough that nobody is really tempted to push them out of the middle. In exchange they provide a superb regulated environment.
- transparency - you can get objective tested evaluations of most of the developers and you can even check out their personal sites and contact them off oDesk if you wanted to.
- good design: unlike rentacoder.com, oDesk looks like it was meant to be used by people in attractive offices not tortured coders in industrial parks. As an ex-adman appearances are important to me.
- high rates for the providers. As a buyer that sounds like a crazy notion. But really I don't want to be hiring a developer for $2/hour. Not only would I not feel great about it. He will probably either not have the skills or do a shoddy job. oDesk gives really talented guys in Tomsk (who might like Tomsk - I've been to Irkutsk but not Tomsk) a fair shake at earning something like a Western wages. $10/hour ($9 after oDesk's cut) might not sound like much to you but it's a great wage for a programmer beyond the Urals or in Rumania. Expect to see some international programming stars rise out of oDesk.
I could even imagine that I would consider taking on an oDesker as a permanent programmer six months or year into the relationship. Who knows I might even move the guy to the West if that's what he really wanted and the commercial project justified the expense. Certainly, somebody who was doing regular work for Foliovision over six months would be more than welcome to visit home base for a couple of weeks, partly tourism and partly work.
Vienna is the new Paris! Code for us and see Vienna in style.
By Alec
Tags: outsourcing, programming
27 comments on “oDesk: Developers for Developers”
01
I have had a terrible time dealing with Odesk. The developer delivered a project with nearly 100 bugs. Then refused to work on them because he had another project. And Odesk failed to do anything about it because he is one of their long time coders. I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND THEM AT ALL. In otherwords odesk sucks!!!
02
I’m sorry to hear about your problems Paul.
It sounds like you should have started with some smaller projects with this guy the first time.
I’ve started to get very wary of giving large projects to coders. They often take it enthusiastically, screw it up and still want to be paid.
Not quite sure what the solution is, except to dole the work out in chunks. You effectively have to become the hands on project manager.
03
It requires that you filter up the right provider to
prevent such annoyances. And example, you might require
on the job posting that, candidates must score 70%
higher of the oDesk test (java, html, etc etc.) before
interviewing them and hiring.
04
I have written a detailed review of the oDesk service in this post.
05
Nice review Karel.
Really good detail - I like your focus on productivity and smoothness of payment from the perspective of the developer.
Your ideas about quality in software struck a cord with me:
That’s exactly right. We have to focus more on quality and less on price.
I see you are not far away in Prague. I am looking for another PHP developer and a CSS designer for Bratislava. If you know anyone really good looking for work and willing to spend at least a few days every couple of weeks in Bratislava, let me know.
I have a couple of questions more for you.
06
Thanks Alec,
ad your questions:
- wordpress is 2.3
- my host is php5
more on this in my post: http://ework.cz/ .. I keep the table up-to-date
Concerning the php,css work .. please send me a note to karels at ework dot cz .. I might have something .. thanks,
07
I had a few bad experiences with Odesk, and finally have learned my lesson. Sure everyone says there are good and bad programmers, but the problem with Odesk is their dispute system. If a programmer runs up the hours and/or delivers garbage. Which happens more often than it doesn’t, then you have little recourse. Their system charges your bank card anyway, then you are at their mercy to get a refund. You’d be more likely to get hit by a meteorite. So I advise everyone to stay away from Odesk.
08
[…] Developers for developers […]
09
oDesk like any other business is about money. They are simply middle men and do nothing to protect buyers. BUYERS BEWARE!!!!! This is however great news for sub-standard coders! Write horrible code get paid every week and if the buyer doesn’t figure out you are a horrible coder right away or watch you like a hawk…you just made some cash for something useless! The just open a new account under a new name and repeat..over and over again. NICE!
Unless you are willing to check all the code that is done for you…everyday….good luck!; ) While it might be a great “deal”, in the long run you will pay just as much if not more, in order to get things right AND it will take longer. Pay a little more and get someone you trust and can have face time with. The extra money will be well worth it.
There are great coders on oDesk, most of them have been scooped up by big companies. So the real talent pool is thin. Bottom line, Odesk sucks big time! They only care about making money and could care less about protecting the buyers. A very bad business plan and it is only a matter of time that word of mouth gets around and they go under.
10
Well that could be a bit of a problem: If the bigger companies are out headhunting on oDesk and then take it private as soon as they find somebody good, then oDesk doesn’t make any money and the talent pool gets very thin.
I hope what you are writing is an exaggeration, John, but thanks for sharing your point of view.
It’s not the first time someone has complained about getting junk code from oDeskers. Sounds like the dispute resolution system needs some enhancement to provide more protection to buyers.
11
I will say this Alec. You are more responsive than oDesk.
We now live in a world were big e companies like oDesk and eBay hide behind their policies and have completely no customer service touch. Once they have your money, good luck getting it back.
Of course there are some good coders on oDesk, good luck finding them. After going through a few horrible experiences I decided to go the test score route. Find the guys who were in the top 10% in a given discipline and go for it. Well, i found out quickly that anyone can take the test for someone else. I hired the #4 guy for a certain discipline and and he couldn’t code to save his life. Furthermore, he took forever and sent my project into a tail spin due to delays and horrendous code.
ODesk is a huge risk for the buyer and none for the coders and oDesk. Check out some of the larger Affiliates like Soft Reactor. They have 50 + coders and thousands of hours and very little feedback. Do you want to know why they have such low feedback for hundreds of jobs? The reason why is a small single guy like me cannot bear getting bad feedback back from Soft Reactor, because then no one will want to work for me. However if you give a place like Soft Reactor bad feedback, they can absorb it. Plus they are ruthless business men and will just simply fire their coders and wash away the bad feedback.
Now if you go the freelancer route it is even worse.
I hate oDesk. But I am stuck there right now. I have blown over $10k and I still do not have a functional site.
I have hired something like 16 different people and i can honestly say that only 4 of them have been good. And 2 of the 4 are writing content for me. So that = 2 decent coders out of 12 hires of coders.
A horrible batting average at best.
12
You can give a coder bad feedback, but they can make the feedback private. So no one has to see their dirty laundry.
The coder who cheated me was able to turn around and get another project within a few days anyhow. No doubt he’s doing the same tricks and exploiting another dupe.
The reason I closed my account with Odesk and began searching for greener pastures was that I took issue with their dispute resolution system;
It only permits you to dispute whether they actually worked during the hours logged. If the coder blows away your deadline, or delivers junk code, or even nonrelevant code, then there is no disputing at all. You could ask for php and get java, or even html.
It reminds me of having to deal with the poor quality of US Postal employees, as long as they show up and could fog up a mirror underneath their noses, they get paid.
13
Hello John and Ben,
I think that’s terrible that coders are allowed to hide the feedback. That slants the odds in favour of the dishonest hack. What a shame.
But I do have to say John, your odds on getting a good coder are pretty standard in my experience.
When you find someone good, I’d recommend you hang onto him.
What’s this project about? You’ve piqued my curiousity. If your numbers are really in that neighbourhood ($10k), you could probably afford to hire us. We code very well and are particularly good on user interface.
14
That’s your problem and a lot of other’s problem, but it’s 100% your mistake/fault…
oDesk have interview feature and you need to interview with coders before choosing them.
When you accept Indian cheap coders, or cheap coders with no experience or inexperienced people, you should know that you’ll have such problems.
You should review coders and choose RIGHT person, you need to stop working more with coder who is wasting your time within 3-4 days.
So don’t blame others…
15
Ha, within “3 to 4″ days, I would have lost several hundred. I might as well throw my money in the garbage can and save the frustration.
I’m not in the business of sending my hard earned money overseas. My government does that for me.
Saying it’s 100% the clients fault for choosing an Indian coder shows how small and full of douche your mind is. How would you say one should interview coders to find the right one when they can hide their bad feedback.
I got burned by a jerk from Lithuania first, then a douchebag from Indonesia, and the last straw was a hack from India. I’ve been PMing for years, and never had the frequency of garbage that I found on Odesk.com. I’m not whining and trying avoid responsibility, but I am trying to help others avoid my bad experience.
Odesk is simply a haves for the scum and villainy of the internet.
If you find a good honest coder - keep him! I found one, but on Elance.com
16
I’ve just accepted my first job at oDesk, and I do content rather than code, so I may not really have the experience to join this discussion. Still, I can tell you that I live in the U.S. and charge U.S. prices. I wrote to the buyer and offered my credentials, and he is paying me for a single brief project before deciding whether to keep me on for the long term.
This is exactly what I do with local clients.
I like oDesk so far, because it seems like a good way for me to pick up a few extra hours when I have room in my calendar, without overcommitting myself or lessening my availability for my regular clients. I don’t mind the watching — buyers are guaranteed productivity and providers are guaranteed payment, even though we’re all strangers, so we don’t have to worry about that.
There are providers and buyers who are working with very small budgets. I hope the people who are accepting jobs for $10 an article live in a place where that is a useful amount of money, but I don’t have to work for that rate. And the buyers who have only a small budget can find someone with the skills they need at the price they can afford. It seems like a win-win situation.
17
@ JCodingGod
I agree with you. The preinterview is very important. Here’s what I consider a priceless tip (it’s a variant on the approach in Getting Real) for others having difficulty with oDesk:
Make your first project a tiny test project, to which you already know the right answer and how the code should look. The project should take 20 to 50 minutes for an excellent to good coder.
Those who aren’t good won’t be able to finish it at all. You are out of pocket a grand total of $10. And move on to the next candidate.
@ Former Odesk User
I think when hiring coders from sites like oDesk or rentacoder or Elance, you have to plan to succeed one in three times. The main issue is to get out of a bad situation early. Please try the tip above and let me know how it goes.
Generally, in my own business I’ve moved away from all remote coders (alright I still have a couple, but we’ve worked together for days in person so we understand one another pretty well). There are huge advantages to being able to sit down together in front of the computer monitor and point and look and tinker and laugh together.
It makes work much less of a grind and more of a sport.
Again, I will emphasize, if you find someone good, up his or her rates voluntarily and keep him/her! Even Microsoft recognizes that there is a 1000 to 1 value ratio between a brilliant and a run-of-the-mill coder - although personally I think there are more good coders out there than there ever were.
Via the internet, the ones who want to be good are able to pick up best practices without ever working at Sun, Oracle, IBM, Google or any of the other big firms.
@ Rebecca
Congratulations on your first job. Sounds like you have the right approach with a small test project. As a supplier, the rates have to work for you or there’s no point. Good for you.
Stop by again you have a few more project under your belt and let us know your experience as a supplier.
@ John
If you still need help, feel free to drop me a line.
18
When I see some of the “solutions” that some people present here I have to laugh. Here’s the deal. Many of these coders come from desperate circumstances. Playing tricks and scamming the system is a way of life for some. I am sure there are many that have ways of starting a new id on oDesk after they have burned one out.
The interview as a method of weeding out canidates? Are you serious? I interviewed a lot of “coders” who promised me the world only to find out they could not deliver, niether on time or accurately. Then you have to start all over again, minus the money you already paid for crappy code. So you lose both time and money.
Anyway I found 3 very competent guys after a lot of searching and $$$$$ down the drain. I have built trust with them and have treated them well (eg big bonuses). We are now loyal to each other and don’t need oDesk.
Bottomline, hiring offshore is a clusterfuck. Hope you have better luck than I did.
19
Hello John,
I’m glad you’ve found some good people finally.
But I think you could have managed your projects on oDesk more carefully and had a better experience.
My tip above works. Try it sometimes.
20
I’ve come back now that I’ve had a couple of assignments at oDesk, and I see nothing to complain about. Both my buyers have asked me to continue working for them. I’m enjoying both the assignments. I’ve been paid just as promised, and the monitoring hasn’t felt intrusive. All in all, oDesk seems well designed.
I do get responses to my applications telling me that I’m too expensive, but I also refuse to apply to plenty of jobs because the pay scale doesn’t suit me. Users of the system have the freedom to set both what we’ll pay and what we’ll work for.
I should also mention that it’s very easy to provide samples of your work, both in your oDesk portfolio and as I do by linking to my website. Buyers should have no difficulty in determining the quality of the workers. I don’t have a huge amount of sympathy for people who offer very little and expect a lot.
I do of course have sympathy for those who’ve had bad experiences at oDesk, but I like the system. I expect to keep it as part of my freelance experience.
21
Hello Rebecca,
It sounds like you are doing a good job with oDesk, only taking work which suits you and at a price point which makes sense for you.
I would imagine hiring you is still less expensive than hiring a company or going out and hiring the local top gun, so it’s quite a deal for the people who have a viable business plan for the internet.
I hope your contribution will help other buyers and workers on oDesk. Thanks for sharing!
22
Yes, indeed. In fact, it’s less expensive than hiring me privately. At oDesk, you just get — and pay for — hourly online work. Since private clients also get face to face or phone meetings and research and ongoing support, I charge a lot less at oDesk.
23
Experienced freelancers are almost always better than average company employees (having same years of experience) in terms of productivity. I can tell you this from my personal experience as well as experiences from friends. Freelancers are much more productive because they think and work in different ways. A freelancer is not just another cubicle guy.
At oDEsk, they are creating a virtual cubicle. They track the worker in every possible ways they can think of and thats just “pathetic”. Even strict companies don’t track and restrict activities of their employees the way oDesk does. oDesk is snatching the “free”-ness from a freelancer and pushing the worker inside an “electronic cage”. This is called eSlavery. There is no scope of creativity or productivity.
If you want best result, use your “brain” and identify a freelancer who is among best in the profession. Offer good money for the work. Remember, “you get monkey if you pay peanut”. Let the guy do his job at his convenience.
I assure you that oDEsk sucks big time. Sooner or later they are going to shut the shop if they don’t change their way of caging the workers.
My request to freelancers: Don’t let oDesk (or any other company) destroy freelance community by converting the freelancers into slaves.
BOYCOTT oDesk NOW.
24
Hello Rover,
I would never recommend hiring a cubicle type personality. In fact, we won’t hire them at Foliovision. But I don’t think you have to be a freelancer to have the right creative mentality. I will grant you that a successful freelancer is more likely to have the right mentality - it’s a job hasard.
I totally agree with you that I don’t have time or inclination to sit on top of a bunch of programmers. In a way it’s like a galley - it requires a foreman on the deck cracking a whip.
But you are discounting the oDesk model too far. The entire Mediterranean was under the control of galleys for hundreds of years.
I really think some coders and some buyers would find the oDesk system a great way to get to know one another.
What is worrisome for oDesk is that they are serving as an introduction service. Under their current system, they won’t get a cut of the ongoing relationship.
What shall we call it - chaperoned dating?
But Rover, I don’t think you’d go on a chaperoned date either. You’d do best to go back to reading Kropotkin and planning the burning of the Senate.
Just forget you ever heard about oDesk and you’ll be happier for it. And there are far greater evils in the world than oDesk crying out for attention and resolution.
25
I don’t mean to be an oDesk cheerleader, and I can see possible problems there for both buyers and providers, but the emphasis on the oversight suggests to me that some of the commenters haven’t tried it.
Here are some ways I’ve had my work checked by clients:
* phone conferences in which I describe my work for the previous week
* spreadsheets showing all the linkbuilding activity I’ve done
* forwarded copies of link requests and responses
* local clients hanging out in my home or asking me to come to their offices and work on their machines with them
* screenshots from oDesk
What’s the difference? It’s a cheap and effective way to share the work I’m doing. I can see what my teammates are doing when we’re blogging for the same client and make sure we don’t duplicate topics. I’m also supervising another oDesk worker for a client, and I can see what she’s up to also and give suggestions, just as I would if we were in an office together.
If I need to take a phone call, I can suspend the screenshot. When I need to move to another machine (to use special software, for example), I leave a note saying what I’m doing.
Whatever concerns there may be with oDesk, the screenshots are a straw man.
26
As far as the idiot who commented about “eSlavery” and lamenting the fact that Odesk provides numerous ways to track and monitor a worker:
1) I am guessing you have no experience with programming as actually programming is something that should be tracked and monitored and it doesn’t require nearly as much “creativity” as you think, its technical work and I am sure most companies do track their workers in a variety of ways
2) What is the alternative to monitoring the workers? To just not monitor them at all and hope for the best? You do realize that these are workers from places like India, Russia, China, etc and they often have poor to fair English skills.. the only way to have any chance of having them work effectively is to monitor them as much as possible, if they have a problem with this then they are being dishonest and trying to cheat the buyer.
27
Rick, your point is a good one. By monitoring the programmers closely you can see when they are going off track.
Again, I would suggest that having workers that one has to monitor so closely is hardly efficient but on the way to scaling to the point where one can have more self-sufficient (and expensive) employees, oDesk is probably a very good stop.
It’s interesting that Rebecca doesn’t feel that she is being imposed on as she works. It works for her. I could see how it might not work for some workers. I don’t agree with you Rick that they are necessarily dishonest or trying to cheat. Some people just don’t work well when being watched or they have all kinds of weird stuff on their monitors that they don’t want to share.
For those who are like that, there’s always jobs at Rentacoder for which they can bid. The eslavery argument would be stronger if oDesk was the only model for freelances on the market. It’s just one of a bunch.
I’d like to hear some more comments from people in the system as suppliers. I wonder if there is anyone both buying and selling services at the same time on oDesk.
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